Little Venice Rhyl a Mystery or Myth Below Queens Market?

Little Venice Rhyl a myth & distant memory to some and a code of silence to others!

The Rhyl Palace Brochure

Updates to the Little Venice Rhyl and Queens Market article

This article was originally written on the 13th November after many months of working on getting information on Little Venice. As this is an ongoing project the article is now a page which will be updated as time goes by with information on Little Venice Rhyl, so please make sure you keep popping back.

Since the original post, people have searched for information on Little Venice Rhyl, so now, hopefully, I can bring you all the news and updates as I get them with regards to the Queens Palace and for the underwater Victorian waterways.

Big thanks to everyone that has helped me out with the quest for knowledge and especially to Glenn and Stuey for putting up with my questions and for supplying me with info and images etc. and to David for allowing me to use some of his pictures from Flickr. Not forgetting Rhyl Library for the photocopies of 1902 The Rhyl Palace brochure.

Table of contents

  1. Little Venice Rhyl
  2. A bit of an enigma
  3. Not just a Rhyl myth
  4. The Queens Palace
  5. The underwater world of Little Venice Rhyl
  6. A 106 Year Flight OF Fancy
  7. Little Venice Not As Big As Some Would Say
  8. Investigating Further And Saving Queens And Little Venice
  9. Queens Could Have Been So Much More
  10. News Article From The Rhyl Record and Advertiser Nov 29, 1902
  11. Re-Opening of Queens Palace
  12. Little Venice Rhyl Discovered at Queens in Rhyl (BREAKING NEWS 7 March 2021)
  13. The Final Say And Video For Little Venice Rhyl

Little Venice Rhyl a bit of an enigma!

Some people think that Little Venice in Rhyl is all a myth and that it is just something that is mentioned about Rhyl just to add a little bit of mystery to Rhyl. But I’m here to tell you that it did exist in one of Rhyl’s oldest remaining Victorian buildings.

My journey for information and the discovery of the mythical river system started as a project to learn more about “Old Rhyl“, not just what can be seen, but also the hidden Rhyl and buildings that have been lost from the town forever.

I started off some time back posting about a more recent “hangout” after being inspired by Sara Sugarman, that place was The Bistro, after talking to many people and learning more about the town, I came across the gossip and hearsay of “Little Venice“, a place I vaguely remember from the 80s.

So I put the call out on Twitter and Facebook about information on the elusive Victorian attraction and if anyone could help.

Facebook never fails me when it comes to asking for help, especially when I ask on a group I belong to called “We Love Old Rhyl“, which has a great group of people who are always willing to help when they can and even supply photographs when available.

Little Venice Not Just A Rhyl Myth

As I mentioned earlier, Little Venice has been widely regarded as a myth, something that has been mentioned in whispers and looking into the place has been a bit of a tough one, investigating it has been a bit of a challenge and getting photographs of how it was has been an almost impossible task.

Queens Palace & Arcade

Starting above with The Queens Palace

The Queens Palace was constructed in 1902, but sadly in 1907 it was struck by fire which decimated Queens, no one really knows how the fire started, but it was mentioned that it could have started in the underground rivers, Little Venice!

The fire had destroyed the Palace ballroom and theatre, the dome, the shops on either side of the Queen’s Arcade, and the roof gardens above them (which gave a sheltered promenade which was quarter of a mile in length), and the whole of the façade, except about half of the front of the Queen’s hotel.

The spacious billiard and luncheon room behind the Arcade shops. And a portion of the front of the hotel remained and a further end of the Arcade with its frontage to Sussex Street.

Now I have been told that 80% of the building remains, the inside where the market now is, which I believe is the old ballroom has the walkways boarded up, which I remember walking once as a child, and at first glance around the building not much remains on the inside of the older fittings that survived the fire.

Queen’s Arcade does not meet the criteria for listing – CADW on protecting the historic building (2007) BBC News

From the outside of the building, you can see the bricked up windows that once let light into the glorious ballroom from the upper levels, showing its grandeur from days gone by.

Once inside what is now the market, looking up towards the awful tiled panel ceiling where tiles have fallen down, you can see the grand old ceiling that is hidden from sight, with its lovely ornate plaster work that is begging to be seen, restored and lit with light that will bathe it in its architectural glory.

Above False Ceiling Queens Market Rhyl
Above the false Ceiling of Queens Market

The text on the wall at the back reads:

Not entirely sure at what point this was painted on the wall, but it’s quaint.

Queens Bar (Late 50s, early 60s)
Queens Bar (The late 50s, early 60s)

Whilst most is hidden away from sight in the Queens market, you can catch glimpses of many things, but my main target was to get a chance to find out more about Little Venice, even if it was just a river of concrete, allegedly!

The Queen’s Palace

The predominating local attraction this Eastertide has, of course, been the Queen’s Palace, which place of entertainment has, under the direction of Mr P J Ashfield, the Syndicate’s new manager, afforded some thousands of visitors quite a variety of amusements. During the week the turn- stiles have rattled incessantly, especially that one which gives admittance to “Venice” by which name the huge and hitherto apparently useless basement of the Palace is new known, and deservedly so, as all who have visited this wonderland will readily acknowledge. As we stated in a previous I issue, when the work was on the point of completion, the transformation is a most elaborate and fairy-like one.

Not only are the walls of the building adorned, at great expense, with faithful likenesses of present-day Venetian scenes, but even the eight double arches that span the walled-in water, on which gondolas are manned by picturesquely attired Italians, are treated in a style that should satisfy the most fastidious tastes. Even the ceiling is star spangled, so that at night when the 100 electric lamps are aglow the scene is delightful to contemplate. It will thus be seen that for twopence (the price of admission to “Venice“) and an additional charge of only one penny for a trip in a gondola one gets a feast that ought to gratify the wildest imaginations of any- thing obtainable at anything like the price, for we must not forget to mention that an up to date exhibition of waxworks is included in the first twopennyworth.

eight double arches that span the walled-in water, on which gondalas are mannedClick To Tweet

Another great feature is the electric lift to the dome and tower, which are crowned with a crow’s nest,” from which a magnificent view of the sea and country is obtained at all points of the compass. We have dealt in another column at some length with Monday’s programme at the Palace, and we would also place on record that during the week there have been several capital turns each evening, with intervals, as usual, for dancing.

The artistes include DeValzo and his box trick performance, Campkin, the tramp cyclist; Marie Feldon, the twentieth century girl Dot Bolino, soprano comedienne and Professor McMahon. There is also a novel cycle performance and an exhibition of Royal American Bioscope pictures.

Source – Welsh Newspapers Online (April 18 1903 – Rhyl Journal)

The Mysterious Rhyl Underwater World of Little Venice

The main problem with Little Venice is getting access to it, I remember back in the ’80s going through a door and alongside some steps going up were some steps going down and although I attempted to venture down these I was caught! But since then I’ve learnt that these were heading to somewhere that was nothing to do with the elusive Venice.

Queens Rhyl - Blazing Minds

If you mention anything about the underground rivers in the Queens Market in Rhyl, you are looked at as if you are from some top-secret government agency and if you actually ask anyone you are told it either “it never existed” or “it was filled with concrete many years ago“, nobody outside of the market has any proof or memory of it being filled with concrete and imagine how much it would have taken to fill it!

Which is all very bizarre, considering that brochures from around 1902 actually mention the Venetian underground rivers!

But sometimes when asking you can get some wonderful stories of people remembering the market and some even saying that restoration would be nice, but and this is a big but, any work would be costly and would possibly take away the lively hood of the stall holders.

Queens Palace Brochure - Little Venice

A 106 Year Flight of Fantasy

Over the 106 years since the fire at Queens on the 24th November 1907, there have been some amazing stories flying around about the size of the waterway, some have said that it stretches as far as the Marine Lake and other have said it goes right up the other direction of Rhyl to what is known as the Splash Point.

So it’s now time to put some of the records straight when it comes to the size of the Victorian underground waterway.

Today (26th November 2013), I was honoured to get to see the plans for Queens, not only the early ones with a view of the basement, where Little Venice was/is but also some of the wonderful developments that Queens could have been, more on that later.

Blueprints kindly supplied by Stuey Jones (Save Rhyl Queens)
Blueprints kindly supplied by Stuey Jones (Save Rhyl Queens)

If you look closely there are two section, that is quite fascinating, firstly the long section along the top, just off from the stairs on the left. Now, these stairs are the ones that I found back in the 80s. This section could have been the section that was flooded to accommodate the attraction.

Looking at the picture of Little Venice in the 1902 brochure you will see that it seems to have arches on the left, these could have been doorways that were semi-bricked up, to allow a light source to light the attraction.

LIttle Venice Rhyl Postcard
A glimpse of Little Venice Rhyl in the form of a postcard from around the early 1900s

Then there is the section that says “Void”, this could also have been the possible location as it is quite huge and is enclosed, but at the time of these plans, it seems to become completely lacking entry ways in or out.

Little Venice Not As Big As Some Would Say

But you can plainly see from the blueprints, there is no evidence of any waterway stretching from the enclosure of Queens.

The idea of the waterway being so big is quite frankly a fantasy, in my humble opinion, the ride would take you from one side to the other, with a turnaround and back again, very much like a “tunnel of love” would be at a fairground.

So the evidence clearly shows the size, no doubts about the size now.

Queens Could Have Been So Much More

As I mentioned earlier there were other ideas for Queens and it’s development, I was lucky to see some amazing plans for what could have been a truly amazing entertainment venue in Rhyl.

In 1920 the plans were put in for a Picture House, which would have been in the Golden Days of Cinema and again in 1925 another design went through, but sadly these never came to be, all I can say is if one of these had gone through they would have been amazing.

Don’t worry, I have some pictures on the way.

News Article From The Rhyl Record and Advertiser Nov 29, 1902

THE QUEEN’S PALACE. FUTURE ARRANGEMENTS. We understand that in consequence of the success of the entertainments at the Queen’s Palace, the management have decided to continue them throughout the year round without any break, unless it be for a short period while further improvements, additions and alterations are being carried out.

The entertainments will be of a similar character to those given since the opening, though there will be occasional breaks including one of a week in January, when Mr Harry Collins will stage a pantomime. Those who remember the very excellent pantomime which Mr Collins introduced to the town last season, will look forward with pleasurable anticipation to his production at the Queen’s Palace, where with the stage accommodation and scenic effects at his disposal he will be able to stage the piece very effective y. Before next season the spacious basement of the Palace will be converted into Venice.

A sheet of water will cover the whole area, and this will be bridged over at points after the fashion of a Venetian street scene, and studded with real gondolas, which will take passengers around the scene. The walls and ceilings will be decorated with artistic pictorial representations of Venetian scenery and mirrors and other means of hightening the effect and lending realism to the conception will be extensively resorted to. A stage will be erected for the discoursing of music, and shooting galleries, and other forms of amusement will be provided so as to ensure ample variety and constant entertainment for the visitors of this subterranean Venice.

ample variety and constant entertainment for the visitors of this subterranean VeniceClick To Tweet

The dome is now fast approaching completion, and next season will undoubtedly pro, a source of great attraction. It is surmounted by a crow’s nest, and from this high altitude there will be commanded a panoramic view of hill and dale, of mountain and sea, of unsurpassed beauty and grandeur. The tower will be fitted with an electric lift in which the ascent will be made. The interior of the spacious glass dome which forms such a fitting and graceful finish to the architecture of the building will be so treated as to I represent an old English village.

From here also a superb panoramic view of the surrounding country will be commanded, and there is little doubt that it will add still another feature to the many attractions of the Palace. The Arcade is now practically completed, and with seven exceptions the whole of the thirty imposing shops are let, mostly to local tradesmen. Indeed the probability is that by now the whole of the shops are let, for when the information was supplied to our representative Mr Doughty stated that he had several other applications which would be considered in a day or two. Last Sunday night the Arcade was thrown open to the public.

The fountain in the centre was turned on as well also the full blaze of the electric light. Many hundreds of people visited it, and the bright and charming scene presented indicated the popularity to which the Arcade will attain as a promenade, and the animated spectacle it will present during the summer months. It is the intention of the Syndicate also to apply in February for the sanction of the magistrates to extensive alterations of the Queen’s Hotel, the main feature of which will be the construction of a sumptuously appointed Restaurant and Silver Grill,on the principle of the Tower Cafe in Blackpool.

This restaurant will be fitted up in the most luxurious style and elaborately decorated, and is intended to supply what is an admitted want in Rhyl at present, viz, a first class restaurant where dinners of a superior description are all provided at prices within the easy reach of all. Five more bedrooms are to be added to the hotel, and the entrance hall is to be improved and rendered more imposing. Many other additions and alterations are to be made between now and next season, all of which will tend to make the Palace one of the most magnificent and attractive places of entertainment in the whole country.

Source – Welsh Newspapers Online (Rhyl Record and Advitiser November 29 1902)

Re-Opening of Queens Palace

A fascinating update to the story of Little Venice and Queens which as come to light is that it was renamed “Constantinople”, with the gondolas being removed and the archways which spanned the canal being made into show pieces with a tableau of Eastern scenes and models etc.

Little Venice Renamed
Little Venice renamed Constantinople. 1905 Newspaper. 22nd April 1905 Rhyl Journal.

Investigating Further And Saving Queens And Little Venice

I will investigate further into a part of Rhyl’s history that may be lost forever, but the general feeling when you talk to anyone outside of Queens and the arcades, is that access should be granted and that if the river system and part of the ornate designs are still there, then they should be documented for history.

It would be nice to open Little Venice to the public, having something like this as an attraction in Rhyl, it would show how glorious the town was and the wonders that those in the early 1900’s loved Rhyl for.

Personally, I think that having Little Venice restored and possibly the ballroom, would be a real tourist attraction and also be a talking point for anyone visiting the town from around the world to see such a wonderful sight. Imagine the benefit of what this could bring back into the economy of Rhyl itself and it would certainly be a feather in the cap of the current owners.

But the cost of restoration would be phenomenal and most probably not a viable option for the building, but all the same, documenting every inch of what is left, if only something tiny would be lovely for the history books.

With the news just been announced that the BBC will be making a TV movie written by Jeff Pope (Philomena) called “Stan and Ollie” which follows their final UK tour in 1953, it would be nice if the program mentions their show at the Queens Theatre in July 1952.

A mention would bring some deserved attention back to the once glorious Rhyl venue.

So what do you think, do you think that this wonder of Wales should be saved and do you think that we should get more people involved to save it? Maybe we could get the National Trust involved, other organisations and perhaps even Lottery funding to help the owners support the restoration to some point.

Please help spread the word.

UPDATES

Since writing this article the discussion of Little Venice has been re-ignited, Facebook has yet again become the place for people to start questioning what is going on with infamous Little Venice underground tunnel waterway.

My good friends Glenn and Stuey who started the Save Queens Ballroom group on Facebook some years back are passionate about the building like myself and have posted many things about the building in general, I recommend you visit the group.

Also if you are interested in Old Rhyl then check out We Love Old Rhyl on Facebook a dedicated group sharing memories of those days that Rhyl was a thriving and much-loved town, the group includes some amazing photographs from the 1900s upwards, certainly worth a visit.

Today (1st April 2015) we ran an April Fool to bring the attention of Little Venice Rhyl and Queens back into people’s minds and it went very well, the aim was not just to have fun, but also bring to light the idea that something should be done to bring the dreams of those that wonder about the waterway into the 21st century.

3rd January 2018 – The minister for housing and local government, Julie James announced the Welsh Government will contribute £2.5m towards a £5m plan to allow Denbighshire Council to acquire and develop Queens Arcade – formerly the Savoy Hotel and Queens Market on West Parade.

Now the odds are that the building will stripped down not much of the original buildings and features will remain, but only time will tell if this will happen, so far the money has been earmarked for “New retail units, an “event space” and more parking will be created during the renovation of Rhyl’s Victorian seafront buildings“.

Let’s just hope that if anything is found of the elusive and mysterious Little Venice Rhyl that it just isn’t thrown into a skip and just forgotten about, I would like to see things documented for future reference and of the wonder of something that may be lost forever if it isn’t preserved in some way.

February 18 2020 – A Journey Into History – We were recently invited to take a tour of the Queens building in Rhyl that is undergoing 5m regeneration, suffice to say it’s an awful shame to see the state that the building is now in, the locations that we were granted access to have not been seen by the public for many years and several were starting to become more unsafe.

  • Queens Rhyl - Blazing Minds
  • Queens Rhyl - Blazing Minds
  • Queens Rhyl - Blazing Minds

We were hoping to return but sadly due to the Covid-19 Pandemic that has now been put on hold, but as always we will be bringing you updates as and when we have them.

So we say thank you to everyone that shared the article, which in turn brought people here to learn more about LVR.

February 28 2021 – The admins for the Facebook group Save Rhyl Queens were kindly granted more access during the demolishing work that has started on the building. Stuart and Glenn took a video camera into the building for a guided tour of various areas of the building.

The demolition crew have performed ground surveys on the building to look for voids, just in case any heavy machinery would fall them them, and they did not find voids big enough for an underground tunnel system, they only found the two foot wide sewers that were below the building.

Exclusive Images of Queens in Rhyl Courtesy Glenn Mitchell and Stuart Jones

  • Queens Rhyl Demolition - Above Market - Stuart Jones
  • Queens Rhyl Demolition - Behind the scenes - Glenn Mitchell
  • Queens Rhyl Demolition - Stuart Jones
  • Queens Rhyl Demolition 2 - Stuart Jones
  • Queens Rhyl Demolition - Glenn Mitchell
  • The Hunt for Little Venice Rhyl - Queens Rhyl Demolition 3 Stuart Jones

This doesn’t mean that Little Venice Rhyl never excited it only means that it may not have been underground and that is was something else than the magical stories that have been circulating for over 100 years.

Little Venice Rhyl Discovered on the 5th March 2021 (or is it!)

We had some amazing news in from Stuart Jones today that on their last visit to Queens it appears that Little Venice Rhyl has been discovered during the demolition of the Victorian building. Glenn Mitchell has updated us with a new walk through video that shows what is most probably the arches that have been mentioned over the years, take a look for yourselves in the video below.

Possible Discovery of Little Venice Rhyl During Queens Walkthrough

Stuart Jones has told us, “It was found on 5th March 2021, exactly one year and one month to the day and I was the one that looked over the plans again using google earth and other pictures and said almost immediately this is Little Venice. Part of history has been found!

Glenn Mitchell has said, “At present, I think the comment ‘Could these be the arches of Little Venice..’ as we did not say that, it was the demolition team leader guy, he was saying that the ballroom arches reminded him of the arches seen in the only ‘Venice’ photo. We don’t of course think that those arches were part of Little Venice.

He went on to say, “My new evidence of where we believe Little Venice was is based on new informati0on taken from a new digitally enhanced photo of the Little Venice picture I’ve had done.

The Final Video for Evidence of Little Venice Rhyl

“An investigation into the mystery of the Edwardian gondola ride attraction housed at the Queens Palace in Rhyl N Wales in 1902. Is it a myth?, did it actually exist? if so what happened to it. All is revealed in this investigation that starts at the only physical evidence left, a single B/W grainy and out of focus photograph, could this piece of photographic evidence hold secrets to the mystery.” – Glenn Mitchell

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